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Adam Flager on The Jeffrey Gross Show: Super Bowl Talk, Injury Law & Third-Party Claims Explained | 2-4-25
12/04/2025
On this episode of The Jeffrey Gross Show, Adam Flager of Flager & Associates joins Joe Dougherty and Jeff Gross for what starts as Super Bowl week banter — and turns into one of the clearest explanations you’ll ever hear about third-party injury cases, workers’ compensation, and personal injury law.
From Eagles vs. Giants rivalry to the brutal reality of football collisions, the conversation naturally transitions into how injuries really happen — and what victims should do when an accident involves both work and another negligent party.
Giants vs. Eagles… and Why Football Hits Matter in Injury Law
The show opens in classic Jeffrey Gross Show style — talking football history, fandom, and Adam’s “conflicted loyalties” as a New York Giants kid who ultimately raised an Eagles fan son.
But the fun turns serious quickly when the hosts discuss how violent the sport truly is:
“It’s like getting hit by a Mack truck.”
Adam connects this directly to injury law: the kind of force implemented in football is the same type of force involved in car crashes, construction accidents, and work-related injuries. Yet professional athletes have trainers, teams, and doctors waiting on the sidelines — everyday workers don’t.
The Most Important Part of the Show: WHAT IS A THIRD-PARTY CLAIM?
Jeff Gross explains it clearly:
A third-party claim exists when:
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You’re injured while working
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AND the fault belongs to someone other than your employer
These cases involve two legal tracks:
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Workers’ Compensation
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Personal Injury Claim against the negligent third party
Example:
You’re driving a company vehicle and get hit by another driver.
You have:
✅ A Workers’ Comp claim
✅ A Third-Party Personal Injury claim against the driver who caused the crash
You Cannot Sue Your Employer — But You CAN Sue the “Other Guy”
Jeff makes an essential point:
You cannot sue your employer for negligence — no matter how careless they were. Workers’ comp replaces that right.
But if someone else caused your injury — driver, contractor, manufacturer, property owner — that party can be sued in civil court.
That’s where Adam Flager and Jeff Gross work together:
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Jeff handles Workers’ Comp
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Adam handles the third-party personal injury claim
Most Common Third-Party Scenarios
Adam lists the injuries he sees most often:
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🚗 Work-related car accidents
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🚚 Drivers hitting delivery workers
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🏗 Construction site injuries
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🧱 Unsafe properties
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📦 Falling freight or equipment
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🐕 Dog bites
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⚠️ Faulty products
Any time the injury happens at work and another party caused it — a third-party case may exist.
What About Insurance… When It’s a Work Accident?
Adam explains:
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Workers’ compensation handles your medical care and partial wages
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Your third-party lawsuit is against the negligent driver or company
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If that party lacks insurance → your own uninsured/underinsured coverage can apply
And here’s a huge overlooked benefit:
If your workers’ comp settlement is based on YOUR personal auto policy — the workers’ comp company cannot take reimbursement from it.
Why Good Lawyering Makes Cases Bigger (Not Smaller)
Jeff explains the concept of:
SUBROGATION
Meaning:
The workers’ comp company gets repaid if you recover money from your personal injury lawsuit.
BUT…
Adam turns that into an advantage:
The higher Jeff builds the workers’ comp claim, the more damages I can demand on the personal injury side.
Bigger medical payouts →
Bigger wage loss figures →
More damages →
Bigger settlement leverage
The Strategy: Why Flager Waits Before Filing Lawsuits
Adam doesn’t rush to sue — and for good reason.
If he files too early:
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Defense attorneys interfere
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Depositions begin
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Doctors get restricted
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Claims slow down
Jeff handles Workers’ Comp first.
Then Adam takes over and finishes the job.
“He hands me the ball and I run it into the end zone.”
The Real Killer of Injury Claims: LIES & SOCIAL MEDIA
Both attorneys hammer this point.
Nothing destroys a case faster than:
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Hiding prior injuries
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Lying about activity
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Posting reckless social media content
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Getting caught doing what you said you cannot do
Adam gives a brutal example:
A client said he couldn’t lift…
Then got caught on video unloading goods from Home Depot.
The case value collapsed overnight.
Rule:
If something happened — tell your lawyer.
Lying hurts you.
Video will bury you.
How Clients Can Help Their Own Case
Jeff puts it plainly:
✅ Tell the truth
✅ Go to treatment
✅ Report injuries immediately
✅ Tell us about new accidents
✅ Don’t overshare on social media
Adam adds:
If I learn bad news from YOU — I can deal with it.
If I learn it from the defense lawyer — we’re already dead in the water.
Settlement Reality: Two Checks, One Client
In most cases:
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Workers’ Comp settles FIRST
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Personal injury continues AFTER
You receive:
✔ One workers’ comp payout
✔ One injury lawsuit settlement
Different pots.
Different damages.
One coordinated strategy.
When Should You Call a Lawyer?
Immediately.
Don’t wait.
Don’t “see how it goes.”
Don’t listen to the insurance adjuster.
CONTACT INFORMATION
Adam Flager — Flager & Associates
📍 Serving PA & NJ
📞 215-953-5200
🌐 FlagerLaw.com
Jeff Gross — Workers’ Compensation
📞 215-512-1500
🌐 PhiladelphiaWorkersComp.com
FINAL WORD
This episode isn’t just “legal talk” — it’s a roadmap.
If you’ve been hurt at work…
If someone else caused it…
If insurance is confusing you…
This exact conversation explains:
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What you’re entitled to
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What mistakes NOT to make
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Who to call first
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Who fights which battle
TRANSCRIPT
Episode 16 — The Jeffrey Gross Show
Guest: Adam Flager
Date: 02-04-25
Announcer:
The following programming is sponsored by DND Media. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect the views of this station, its management, or Beasley Media Group.
Jeff Gross:
All right, ladies and gentlemen, around the Delaware Valley, welcome to The Jeff Gross Show here on WWDB Talk 860. Great show we’ve got going. Jeff, how are you, sir?
I’m good, Joe, how are you?
I could not be better. We’ve got a fantastic guest, Adam Flager. Adam Flager, how are you, Adam, doing?
Adam Flager:
Well, Joe, thanks for having me. Joe and Jeff, appreciate being here. Thanks for being part of this.
Jeff Gross:
Well, it’s an honor. You know, we talk about the Flager & Associates Personal Injury Hour on WWDB, and that’s a great new show. And so, you know, I figured, you know what? It’s Super Bowl week, man, let’s get some heavy hitters on the broadcast. And, you know, so we’ll talk a little, talk a little sports.
We were going to do this broadcast at 6:30 on Sunday — you know, perfect. You know, Jeff requested that, and I suggested coming Sunday. But you know why we didn’t do it? And I want to be honest with our listeners: I didn’t want to dent the ratings of the Super Bowl. The last thing I want is, you know, 45 to 50 million people listening to The Jeff Gross Show and missing the Eagles game. So we gave them a reprieve.
Jeff, very kind of you.
Jeff Gross:
Joe, well, it’s my pleasure. Having said that, obviously, you know — I mean, what are your thoughts? What are your thoughts on the game?
Jeff, I’m going to bring Adam in because Adam has — just so you understand — an interesting heritage when it comes to football. And somehow it got through security anyway. But overall, with that, I can’t wait to hear that story. You’re going to hear it.
Jeff Gross:
Well, you know, my feeling is that they should — it’s a very easy, easy, easy play. Just give the ball to Saquon, yeah, and the game is over.
Jeff Gross:
Let me tell you a little bit about Adam Flager.
Jeff Gross:
Let’s hear it.
When you mention Saquon, think of — you know, and this growing up — think of what fans would be the most hurt, you know, by watching this: Giants. Now, I’m not saying that there’s any relationship there, but he’s got a very interesting heritage. Eagles, obviously, but talk about your heritage when it comes to sports.
Adam Flager:
So my family is from New York. My dad was born in the Bronx. Grandparents were from the Bronx, and the only team that was passed down to me was the Giants. I don’t like a single other New York team. I don’t like the Yankees, the Mets, the Islanders, the Rangers, the Knicks. I actually detest all of them. That was the only team that was passed down, and I don’t like a single other New York team.
Having said that, I’ve lived in the Philadelphia area and lived in Philadelphia proper for many years, and most of my other family and friends are all Eagles fans. My son is an Eagles fan. So my wife instituted a new season that if he has to be supportive of me, I have to be supportive of him.
I took him to a couple of Eagles games this year. We were at the divisional round against the Rams, and, you know, so I get to — and I’m happy for Saquon. I didn’t want what happened to Barry Sanders to happen to Saquon, where you have this generational talent wasting that talent on a team that doesn’t deserve him. I’m happy he’s thriving, because he should. He’s too good to waste.
Adam Flager:
That narrative, by the way — a lot of Giants fans I have seen — like, at first, you know, you had the narrative of “the traitor” and all that. But, you know, the overwhelming majority of the Giants fans that I’ve talked to are happy with Saquon. At least outwardly, yeah.
Adam Flager:
Well, there’s a lot that are bitter, but I think, you know, because the Eagles are doing so well, it’s not like, “Oh, well, if we had Saquon, we’d be doing well.” No, we would be doing the same thing we did with him every year, which is being bad, and he would be great on a bad team, right?
Jeff Gross:
So, having said that, it’s interesting, Jeff, growing up — okay, and we’re relatively the same age. Adam is a little older than us, of course. At least we’re on radio, so no one can really see. But, you know, growing up, what was your, you know, NFC East… okay, any teams based on your experiences growing up that you dislike more than others? Of course, the Eagles are our team, but I’ll tell you…
Jeff Gross:
What I liked — I had a bedspread when I was a kid of all the NFL teams, including, like, you know, the Baltimore Colts. Remember the Baltimore Colts, right? Johnny U. And I used to love the Miami Dolphins because they had the most colorful uniforms. It was a pretty cool uniform. And I loved the Raiders because they were like, you know, black and gray and tough, yeah. So I based my like of teams — like a lot of people — on uniforms.
But my grandfather always instilled in me: the Eagles were the way to go, obviously. And he didn’t call them “Eagles,” of course. He called them “the Iggles.”
Jeff Gross:
“The Iggles,” right?
And me too — my grandfather also, “the Iggles.” And so, you know, that’s where I grew up.
Jeff Gross:
Well, I never, ever — like, when I look at the Giants — and they have some good reasons to hate the Eagles. Speaking of Giants fans, because of the Miracles in the Meadowlands, like things that are one in a trillion and, okay, the losses are just unimaginable.
However, I have never had an issue with the Giants when I look back, even when it comes to NFL Films. Like I said, if you watch a lot of these 30 for 30s, right, of course I hated Larry Bird’s guts, okay? I love watching, you know, the legendary stuff. I hated him because he was so good and he played for Boston, right?
But I love — so when I look at the old timers, right, and I’m looking at the Giants, I mean, Mother of God: LT, you know what I mean? Like, the stories are legendary. And I’m a massive, you know, Bill Parcells fan. I hated him when he coached there, but he would have been perfect for us. He’s like a Philly-oriented guy.
But I never disliked the Giants. I never had a problem with the Cardinals, where they — St. Louis — was in our division, if you remember, yeah. And so I never had a problem with those two. Never really liked the Redskins much, because they were good at times. But they, you know… Dallas.
Jeff Gross:
That’s the answer. It’s Dallas. Everybody hates Dallas, yeah — unless you’re from there.
Jeff Gross:
Well, these young kids don’t know why we hate them, because we were stuck playing Roger Staubach — there was no free agency — Roger Staubach, Tony Dorsett, all those guys for decades. And we, you know, not until Dick Vermeil got there and Wilbert Montgomery — off tackle, right to the house — in the NFC Championship game.
And football, it all comes in cycles. And so it is funny watching the Giants fans on reels. Kurt, you see the one kid, you know, they’re showing Saquon going — when he ran the first play against Washington. And it was funny, because it is nuts.
So anyway, having said that, you know, I’m excited about this week. I thank God we already have one, Jeff, ‘cause, you know, I mean, not having any compared to having one — you know, like where you’re desperate. I’m looking to see if we can get a crew to kidnap Mahomes. We’re not worried about that. But I think we got a good shot. Not going to be easy, you know.
So Adam, your thoughts, because you were talking about the three-peat…
Adam Flager:
Yeah, I mean, as a fan of football, to see something that’s never happened before would be cool and exciting. But I know that would also mean devastation for my family and heartbreak.
Jeff Gross:
I won’t be as devastated as I would have been had that Tom Brady pass been caught at the end, but…
Adam Flager:
I got you, I know.
And again, the Giants and Eagles can bond over the fact that Tom Brady is 1–3 against the Giants and Eagles, where he has not — I don’t think he’s lost to any other team in the Super Bowl, yeah. But the NFC East was basically too much for him to handle. So we have that. We have our mutual hatred of Dallas. So there’s a lot going well.
Jeff Gross:
The two favorite teams you always have, right? Giants, Eagles, okay, and whoever’s playing Dallas, right? So we always have whoever is playing Dallas. There’s always two, you know, and so…
Adam Flager:
Yeah, but it should be — I think it’ll be a great game. Both teams are phenomenal. They both have great weapons, and they both have — as we were talking about before the show — both defensive coordinators are really top notch. And I really just want a great game. And, you know, as long as my son isn’t crying, it’s a success.
Jeff Gross:
Well, I’m definitely excited about it.
Adam Flager:
Just give him mac and cheese all night.
Adam Flager:
Whatever he wants he can have — he can eat everything.
Jeff Gross:
I’m going to be a nervous wreck. When I, you know, look at the game, I think, you know, it’s a fairly… listen, I think we’ve got a shot. We’ve got a shot. They’re a mean machine. And I think that everybody talked about Kansas City being, you know, “This isn’t as good as normal.” I just don’t think they give a crap about the regular season. Even though they were 15–2 — lost 38–nothing the last game. They must have had high school kids; nobody played in that game, correct?
Adam Flager:
Well, that’s true, and that means all their starters — because they had them fresh — all their starters had, I think it was like 20-some days off between the last game they played and the divisional round. Yeah, they’re rested.
Jeff Gross:
But, you know, it’s funny that everybody says that — “Oh, they’re rested, you know, they’re good.” I don’t necessarily agree with that. I think that the more rest they get, the more rusty they get.
Jeff Gross:
Well, here’s my thought process on that. In baseball, that applies 100%, correct. You know, like, in other words, they actually have to figure out something with these wild cards, because, you know, you make the wild card, right? All right, you don’t get the bye, and that week is crushing these teams that are off. Their timing’s off.
When it comes to football, the reason I believe the bye does help is because of the injuries. That game is so brutal. It is, it is… Mother of God.
Jeff Gross:
Just one play — if you were in just for one play and you got, you know, tackled — I’d think about it for six months. I think…
Adam Flager:
I think about our clients all the time with that — where a guy is running down and a defensive player comes from the side, and that running back or wide receiver has no clue that that guy is closing in on him, right, and crushes him. And the physical force that’s being put on that player — and they bounce back up.
Jeff Gross:
Well, here’s an interesting thing. So I played football in high school, and I coached it. I was a union ironworker, and a friend of mine by the name of Joe Patrol — haven’t seen him probably since then — was just, “You gotta come out and play for the semi-pro team.”
And, in fact, you know who played on the team with me? Danny McCafferty, right — the Supreme Court Justice, right? He played football at Judge. We always have… I had him on a show not that long ago, when he was running. We still have that debate on who was better.
But I can tell you this: you just pointed something out. I hadn’t been working out; I’m working ironwork every day. I break one — this is practice — and I’m going over to go, and I can see the play. They’re going five, three feet from me. And as I go over, I get hit from the side. And I’m telling you, you know, we’re climbing columns as ironworkers and stuff. Man, I couldn’t… that semi-pro — that, you know, that was not even close to the NFL.
I mean, what you just said — these are like, it’s like getting hit by a Mack truck.
Adam Flager:
Yeah, yeah. Well, you were talking about LT earlier. I mean, you know, he ended careers.
Jeff Gross:
Well, imagine Ron Jaworski every day he gets up.
Any of the quarterbacks — oh my God. I mean, but you know, they must be sitting there going — when they look at Mahomes and they look at how they get… You see the reels on Mahomes? Somebody tapped him, and it was like a joke thing: “That’s a personal foul. Somebody touched Patrick Mahomes. That’ll be a first down, a touchdown, and the game is over. Kansas City wins.”
Well, the point is, could you imagine what Jaworski and those guys think of what you can get away with? You got away with a lot back then that you cannot do now.
Adam Flager:
But also, Patrick Mahomes is the one that’s the face of the league, and he’s selling tickets. So if you have your best players out — I mean, think about when Brady got injured and they changed the rules, yeah, just for that one play, yeah, because it took Brady out. You can’t have that.
Jeff Gross:
It was the only year they didn’t make the playoffs, and he ended 11–5, too.
So, before we go, we start talking about the law — you think Eli gets in the Hall of Fame this year?
Adam Flager:
I do. I think he will. I mean…
Jeff Gross:
He’s finished in the top 10 in passing yards. He’s a two-time Super Bowl MVP. There’s only one other, and…
Otherwise, usually you get in.
Jeff Gross:
Oh, he’s getting in. He’s getting in. I mean, you saw what a huge mistake — I mean, you saw what happened after they let him go, right? Even though he was older, I’m just saying I think he gets in, and we’ll see what happens.
All right, gentlemen, let’s do this. Let’s talk a little bit of law. Hopefully, I’m going to think about your kid during that game. I want him to end that game smiling and not crying.
Jeff Gross, if you will, remind our listeners about yourself and the firm.
Jeff Gross:
Sure thing. So I handle all workers’ compensation claim litigation, meaning I handle the claims themselves from the onset of the claim to the end of the claim. And I do that all in Philadelphia mostly, but all throughout the state. We also handle New Jersey claims.
Only representing the claimant — so we never, ever represent insurance companies.
Jeff Gross:
Fantastic. Adam Flager, about yourself and the firm?
Adam Flager:
Thank you. So, Adam Flager, Flager & Associates. We are a personal injury firm. We handle motor vehicle accidents, slip and falls, dog bites, dangerous products, and everything in between — handling from the very beginning until we hand you that check at the end of things.
Jeff Gross:
So you talk about, you know, the relationship with the clients, which is such an important thing. And I’ve talked about — I think you and I — these are such specialized areas of the law, okay, it’s ridiculously important for individuals to find a specialist, okay, particularly because of something called third-party cases, where there’s a potential for both individuals in this room to work together on the same case.
Jeff, if you will, a little bit about what a third-party case is, and let’s give some examples of different types of third-party cases.
Jeff Gross:
Sure. So my specialty is workers’ compensation, as I just stated. However, if the fault of the injury is from a party other than the employer, that’s what we call a third-party claim.
So if you are driving — let’s say you’re driving a Mack truck — and you get rear-ended or T-boned by another Mack truck, you have a workers’ compensation claim against your company, but you also have a third-party claim against the other company, the driver, and the company that hit you.
And so, in the law, “third-party” refers to the word “other.” It’s not number three, number one, number two. First-party is basically you, your employer, the workers’ compensation carrier. That’s considered first-party benefits — just like if this was a motor vehicle accident and it wasn’t a work-related injury, then the first-party benefits would be the benefits that come to you, the injured party who was driving the vehicle.
The other party is the third party. Third party, like I said, means “other.” And so, you can’t sue your employer for negligence, no matter how egregious the negligence was on behalf of the employer. You cannot sue your employer for negligence. You can only make a workers’ compensation claim, and a negligence claim has to arise out of a problem or the cause of the injury being another party besides your employer.
Jeff Gross:
So having said that, workers’ comp itself is no fault, correct? So in other words, no matter what the situation is, whether…
Jeff Gross:
Even if it’s your fault. Even if you caused the accident, you still qualify for workers’ compensation.
Jeff Gross:
You’re not being… So in other words, somebody can’t figure they’re going to go, you know, hit themselves in a photo on purpose.
Jeff Gross:
Well, no intentional acts would not be included.
Jeff Gross:
Okay, which means that for, you know, for any situation, if I dug a hole and fell in that hole, okay, I’m still eligible for workers’ comp.
Jeff Gross:
Yeah, that’s your own negligence. So that’s okay. That’s still no fault, and you would still qualify.
Jeff Gross:
How many people, though, really don’t know that, and they think that because they caused their own accident — it’s their fault…
Jeff Gross:
A lot of people think that, and a lot of people are told by their employer, “You’re not getting paid anything here because you destroyed the load.”
I mean, I had a client years and years ago who was driving from Golden, Colorado to New York City delivering a product — beer. You can figure out who the company was. And he was trying to make it in one fell swoop from Colorado to New York City. Colorado — it’s a long drive. But you know, he gets a bonus if he gets there early.
And so while he’s on Route 80 in Pennsylvania, he dozed off, fell asleep at the wheel, went over an embankment, lost the entire load, and he needed to be airlifted — which they did — and they performed three surgeries on him.
But the company told him, “There’s no way you’re getting benefits. Look what you did to the load. You lost the entire payload.” And so they’re wrong. He’s still entitled to it, because even though he fell asleep at the wheel, he didn’t do it intentionally. He did it because he was trying to get the incentive bonus that the company was going to pay him for getting there early. At the end of the day, that qualifies.
Jeff Gross:
Okay, so Adam, we’re going to come to you in a second and ask you what’s the first thing you do, but what are the most common — at least in your worlds — when I look at third-party cases…
Jeff, you just mentioned an automobile accident where somebody is driving for a living, okay, and they get T-boned. But there’s also construction accidents, okay, and then there’s product liability–type stuff. There’s all kinds of different scenarios that we could give you.
Well, I’d like to ask, because what are the most common?
Adam Flager:
I mean, motor vehicle is very common, because if you drive for a living and you’re in the car and someone else causes an accident, right, you’re on the clock — workers’ comp. Someone else hit you — that third party that Jeff was talking about — so you have a third-party case with us.
So I would say motor vehicle is the most common. A lot of times those same people that are driving are also delivering, and so a lot of times we’ll have cases where that person is delivering a product — whether it’s beer, whether it’s food, whatever — whether it’s, you know, delivering a package to your front door, and that walkway is icy, or the concrete is crumbling, and then you fall. Again, you’re on the clock — workers’ comp. Someone else caused it by not taking care of their walkway. Third-party case as well.
Jeff Gross:
It dawned on me — since we’ve been doing these broadcasts, I’ve thought of a lot of these. First of all, like trucking accidents. So imagine I’m driving, and maybe I fix computers for a living. So I’m in one of those little cars that say — you know, there used to be a company called A Copy — and you’d be driving down and, you know, they’re going to go fix the computers.
Imagine, I imagine it could get fairly complicated if, for example, you’re driving from one location to another, and a truck is driving pipe — you know, a load of pipe down 76 — and all of a sudden, you know, the load breaks, okay. Now, all of a sudden it hits your car or whatever. Would that be considered a third-party case? And how complicated can something like that get? Because I know trucking accidents themselves can be very complicated in your world.
Adam Flager:
Yeah, I mean, if you’re — again, if you’re working at the time, you’re driving for work on the clock — you’re good on the comp end. And then that’s a third party, that other truck unrelated to your company that’s causing the accident, causing your injuries. So then you would have both claims.
Jeff Gross:
What about insurance, though? Like, does this third-party automobile accident — you know, we’ve talked many times about auto insurance. If you get in a car accident yourself — somebody T-bones you, they don’t have insurance, and you have the minimum — you’ve got a problem.
But when it’s a third-party work accident… imagine if it’s one of these — you know, I’m not sitting here trying to talk about union or non-union — but imagine it’s a non-union employer, and the truck itself has got, you know, no insurance, okay, and you get hit with that pipe or whatever, and you have, you know, the minimum.
You’re watching a little too much football, Tyreek — or basketball — now Saquon’s pushing the Corrado.
I saw that Corrado. I’ll tell you, I immediately called my insurance guy and said, “Listen, I get it, but Saquon’s — he’s pushing it. I’m going with him.”
But my point is: does a third-party case — does the insurance that both parties have — does that still, in fact, affect the injured party?
Adam Flager:
Yeah, I mean, the difference with a workers’ comp case is, you know, when Jeff’s got the comp case — medical and all that — instead of going through the car insurance, it’s going through comp, which is good, because most people only have $5,000 of medical benefits on their auto policy, whereas comp doesn’t have that cap.
Jeff Gross:
What about the third-party case, though, as it relates to the coverage? The coverage — it’s a work, you know, it’s a commercial vehicle, something falls off and it hits you.
Adam Flager:
So your first claim is against whatever vehicle or whatever, you know, whatever caused that accident. In this case, this truck. That’s your first line of defense, right? Your first claim is going against them. And then, if they don’t have sufficient limits, then you can make a claim against your own insurance company for underinsured coverage.
Jeff Gross:
The good news is that in the workers’ compensation world and in the motor vehicle financial responsibility world, if there’s an auto accident that’s work-related, the workers’ compensation carrier has something called a right of subrogation against that third-party recovery.
So if you are successful against the other driver, then workers’ compensation gets to get reimbursed — or they’re entitled to get reimbursed — from that third-party motor vehicle claim, but not dollar for dollar.
But the good news is: if there is no insurance from that third party and you have to go to what Adam just said — an uninsured motorist claim — then, as long as it’s your policy and not the company’s policy, there is no right of subrogation, meaning the workers’ comp carrier does not get their money back.
Jeff Gross:
So Jeff, you get a case like this. What is the process? Maybe really any third-party, potential third-party, because I’m coming into the office, or a family member’s coming in and, you know, I don’t have a clue.
Jeff Gross:
So I assess both. I assess the accident for purposes of workers’ compensation, since that’s what I do, but I also assess it for a third-party claim — whether it be motor vehicle, slip and fall, products liability — any one of those things, including construction.
And, you know, I would call Adam and I would say, “Adam, I think there’s a third-party case here. Would you be interested in handling the third-party claim?” My niche is workers’ compensation, and I basically have a nice referral network of other attorneys for the third-party claims, one of whom is Adam.
Jeff Gross:
And imagine that, you know, an average case gets to your desk on… what would an average case get to your desk as, if it seems… I say that because, you know, you get a lot of people trying to represent themselves for about two weeks until they find out they’re wrapped up into a pretzel and it’s two, three, four weeks.
Jeff Gross:
I get involved when the cases generally require wage loss reimbursement, okay? So there’s two components to workers’ compensation: wage loss benefits and medical benefits.
If this injury is serious enough where the person cannot continue to work, is out of work, then they come to me and they say, “Help,” and I get them wage loss benefits. So those wage loss benefits would trigger enough damage in the claim to give Adam a call.
Jeff Gross:
And when you get that call, let’s just imagine, like Jeff just said, you know this is when they realize they’re not getting paid or their benefits get — it’s a claim petition. You get this case; what are your first steps? Especially since this accident may not have happened two days ago — it may be two months ago, if not longer. What are your first steps?
Adam Flager:
Sure. So a lot of times, you know, we’ll get a little bit of info about the nature of the claim: what happened, what’s going on, nature of the injuries. And then, just as Jeff and his team need to investigate things, I do too.
And obviously, that’s what’s great about someone like Jeff, where we’ve done this dozens and dozens of times. So we know he’s on it on the medical side — making sure that the claimant is getting proper care and getting handled that way.
And then I need to do everything I need to do for a normal personal injury case: figuring out who’s my defendant, right? Who am I making this claim against? What insurance do they have? Do we have witness statements that help support liability? All those things that I need to do.
Because I know Jeff and his team are doing everything the right way on their side of things, I don’t have to worry about that as much, and I can focus on: how am I going to get money for my client? How am I going to do all those other things — setting up things with the insurance company and dealing with all the headaches so my client doesn’t have to.
Jeff Gross:
Where do these cases interact, intersect, where they impact one another? And the importance of having the confidence to know that you’ve got a great personal injury firm in Flager & Associates, and vice versa. Where do they impact one another, where the left hand needs to know what the right hand is doing — back and forth?
Jeff Gross:
You just hit the nail on the head: communication. So we need to make sure that we communicate, and we do.
When I have a case and there’s a development, and I have Adam on board and we’re working as a team, I let him know. I make sure that he has all of my medical records. He’ll make sure I have all of his records.
And I tend to try to do some of the liability investigation as well through the workers’ compensation carrier. Remember, I told you that workers’ compensation — the carrier gets their money back in a subrogation claim. So when we’re successful against a third party, the workers’ comp carrier gets reimbursed a percentage of their money.
In order for that to take place, a lot of times Adam and I won’t have the ability to investigate the claim as well as the workers’ compensation insurance company, because they have a vested interest — particularly in getting that money back. So they’re going to do whatever they can to help them investigate. So they’re going to be familiar with the liability aspect, they’re going to be familiar with the entities that are involved.
If it’s a work-related injury and maybe there’s a vendor that they’re doing business with, they’re going to be able to give us information that we otherwise wouldn’t be able to get.
Jeff Gross:
That’s one of the interesting times where, in a sense, the workers’ compensation carrier is really on your side, right?
Jeff Gross:
Afterwards — yeah. In the beginning, not so much, because we’re adverse to them in the beginning. And then once we start to resolve it…
So what ends up happening procedurally is that Adam would simply wait for me to pretty much finish my workers’ compensation claim. There’s a two-year statute of limitations for the personal injury action, and so when I’m wrapping up my claim — which, two years is a pretty good time for that — Adam would not want to file suit immediately, because that would impact the defense of the workers’ comp claim.
As soon as Adam files his lawsuit, the defense attorney for the third-party claim is going to try to do what that person can to mitigate the damages, get my client to examinations and that kind of thing, and take depositions — and that kind of slows my role on the workers’ comp.
So it’s almost like in basketball, for instance, when you’re inbounding a ball and you let the ball roll on the floor. The clock doesn’t start to tick until the other guy picks it up, right? And you say, “Oh look, it’s going all the way across the floor into mid-court.” Until the guy picks up the ball, no time is coming off the clock. It’s an effort to save the time on the clock.
It’s kind of similar in my situation. Adam won’t start his lawsuit to bring in a defense attorney to try to defend the claim and mitigate the claim until I’m well on my way with my workers’ comp claim.
Jeff Gross:
What about a statute of limitations? People are out there, they’re trying to find their own way and, you know, they’re waiting, they’re waiting, they’re waiting. Probably worked for somebody — an employer — for a long time. God knows what they’re expecting. But what is the statute of limitations? Is there a difference in workers’ comp and personal injury? How does that work?
Jeff Gross:
Workers’ compensation is a three-year statute of limitations, but you have to be careful because there’s a 120-day notice provision. Okay, so if you get hurt and you wait three years to file the claim under the statute of limitations, but you fail to give your employer notice within 120 days of the accident, you’re going to be time-barred — even though you’re within the statute of limitations — because of the notice provision.
So we encourage our clients to notify their supervisors ASAP — or as my daughter would say, “ASAP, for real.” So, at the end of the day, that should happen immediately — the notice.
Once that takes place, then you could wait three years. Now, the reason why that happens is because a lot of times you notify your supervisor, but you’re still working because your condition may not warrant you to go out of work, and your condition may be deteriorating, but not at a very fast rate. And if you don’t have adequate treatment — which a lot of times you don’t, because you’re getting treated by the employer’s doctors for the first 90 days — then you may not be out of work, and you may be working in pain and pain and pain.
And so you don’t even start missing work until, who knows, 90 days or so. At the end of the day, when you have a work-related injury, the key is to give notice immediately. Yes, you have three years. You don’t want to wait three years — it makes you less credible. You want to bring the claim as early as possible.
With regard to Adam — and he’ll tell you — there’s a two-year statute of limitations.
Jeff Gross:
Talk to us — what does that mean, Adam? In other words, imagine if somebody… is it always two years from that incident, or ‘til they know that they’re injured? How does that work?
Adam Flager:
Okay, yeah, there’s an exception in the medical malpractice field, but by and large, it’s a two-year statute of limitations from the date of the injury or date of the incident.
So if you get in a car crash today, two years from today. There’s no notice requirement unless you’re dealing with, like, the federal government. They have kind of their own rules that you have to comply with.
But similar to what Jeff said, the two years is just the time you have to file a lawsuit by. Many times you can settle a case amicably without ever having to file a lawsuit. But the two years is to file that lawsuit — not that it has to be settled by that two years.
Jeff Gross:
Sometimes it can take even longer, right, depending on…
Adam Flager:
Correct. I mean, if you wait close to that two years to file suit, and then you’re litigating the case for another couple years, you could settle that case four years after the date you were injured. It’s not like a fine wine; it doesn’t age well a lot of times. But sometimes you need to wait, because if someone’s still getting treatment, then why am I going to file suit now when this person still needs to get a surgery done, when this person still needs to have rehab and get better, get stronger?
So sometimes you strategically wait to file a lawsuit because there’s still this treatment going on. And if you file too soon, you may be up against some court deadlines before your client’s really 100%.
Jeff Gross:
Let’s talk about settlements. It’s interesting — they can be separate settlements, right? So in other words, a work comp carrier can settle a work comp claim while a personal injury claim is still going on.
Jeff Gross:
Absolutely. In fact, that’s the majority of situations. We would settle our case first. The workers’ comp case would be settled first, because not only do we establish what’s called the “subrogable interest,” which is the wage-loss benefits plus the medical benefits — that’s stuff that’s already been paid — but if you settle the workers’ comp case in advance of the third-party claim, the future wage loss and the future medical expenses are all part of that workers’ comp settlement, in addition to what’s already been paid.
So the subrogable interest includes not only the past items, but the future items that are being dealt with in a lump-sum settlement. So the totality of all of that — the past and the future — gets wrapped up into one. And then I hand Adam a package with a bow on it, and I say, “Here, now you take the ball.”
So I hand off to him. I’m like, you know, I’m like…
Jeff Gross:
You’re Jalen.
Jeff Gross:
Exactly. And I’m handing it to him — he, Adam, is Saquon — and he runs and he scores the touchdown.
Jeff Gross:
Yeah, talk about that — once you get that situation. First off, how long can it take after that, but also, having that information — that bow and the information that you get — how do you use that, and how does having a referral partner who obviously knows what they’re doing help your case moving forward?
Adam Flager:
Sure. So as Jeff said, there’s the subrogation claim, and that is part of the damages for our clients in the third-party case. So the bigger that subrogation claim is, the more the other side has to pay to settle the case.
So because Jeff is very good at what he does, I get these subrogation claims that are very big. But that is to the benefit of our client, because then I say, right off the bat, “Hey, you owe us X amount of thousands of dollars just for that. Then you owe us…” You know, workers’ comp gets you 60-some percent of your wages. I get the remaining part as part of my claim.
If that person can’t work anymore, can’t do that job anymore, then there might be a future wage claim as well. And then add pain and suffering on top, right? So it’s all these layers of damages.
The economic damages are the ones that you can easily put a dollar figure on because you see that. But yeah, when Jeff is done, I’m getting all the final medicals so I have all the records, and I can get them basically for free because those costs can be reimbursed on the workers’ comp side.
So instead of spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, to get medical records, those clients get the benefit of: I have those records without the cost to them. I get the updated lien — subrogation claim — which says, “Here’s how much we paid in medical. Here’s how much we paid in wages.”
And I can gather everything else. What else do we need on the medical side? Do we need a report from a doctor? Do we need this? A lot of that, as Jeff pointed out, is wrapped up with the bow. So it takes a lot of the work that we would otherwise have to do, and it’s already done. Then we can focus on the other parts to get everything else put together.
Jeff Gross:
Now, subrogation — listeners may not know what that is. It makes sense: if I’m a work comp carrier and somebody hits my insured, clearly it’s not my fault, right? In other words, I’m going to insure this individual. They’re going to get their benefits and all those things. They may get a settlement, but that means that the third-party’s insurer — their insurance company — will reimburse. Is that…?
Adam Flager:
That’s part of it. And again, Jeff pointed out, it gets reduced, right? Because ultimately, I’m doing work for the carrier, even though I don’t work for the carrier, in getting their money back. So they reduce by a percentage of the attorney’s fees, percentage of costs and things like that.
So, you know, if they spend $100, they’re not getting $100 back. They’re getting less than that. But it’s still, “Hey, we paid for you. Joe, you got hurt. We paid for you, but now you’re making money. So why don’t we get our money back?” So it makes sense.
And again, it increases the value of a case. And we have to work with the carrier a lot to compromise that amount, to make sure that we’re getting the right amount of money in our client’s pocket. Because ultimately, that’s who I care about — getting my clients paid. I get the carrier paid because I’m legally required to, but not because I want to. I do it so my clients are getting paid and getting protected and getting cared for.
Jeff Gross:
In a perfect world, I will drive up the subrogation lien high enough that it will cause enough of an impact on the third-party claim to make that case settle exponentially higher.
So, for instance, as Adam alluded to earlier — and very correctly — what I can recover for my clients are the economic damages: the wage loss benefits, the medical benefits, the future wage loss benefits, the future medical benefits — things that I can readily calculate. What I can’t calculate are the non-economic damages: the pain, the suffering, the loss of life’s pleasures, the mental anguish, the humiliation. I could give you a laundry list and make up some terms that are non-economic damage components. That’s what Adam is getting.
So that amount would be exponentially higher than what I am able to get on my workers’ compensation end. And that’s what’s delivered to the client in two different lump sums.
Jeff Gross:
How can clients help themselves throughout a case? I can imagine a million different ways that somebody could hurt themselves, okay? It’s amazing. I have an unbelievable network, right? One of the great qualities of you guys right here is, in a sense, the patience and the way you work with clients.
Because a client themselves could be in a bad way fairly quickly. Your legal counsel could turn into emotional counsel in seconds, okay? This thing may last a couple years, okay. When you’re counseling a client to try to make it from point A to point C — not just B, but C — these things can take some time.
And I imagine that there’s — just the nature of some people versus others — they get stressed out quickly. What are the things that clients can do to help themselves during a case and be their own best advocate?
Jeff Gross:
Communicate with their lawyers. So when I talk to my clients and they tell me what’s going on with them, good, bad, or otherwise, they’re helping their case.
If they tell me they were in another accident after our accident and they don’t tell me about it, and I don’t know about it — and Adam doesn’t know about it — until it’s knee-deep in litigation and then they’re cross-examined by one of our legal opponents and that lawyer says to my client, “I understand you were involved in a motor vehicle [accident] two months after this accident. Is that true?” and they say yes — and I’m flabbergasted and so is Adam — that’s what ruins a case. That’s what really deflates the value of the claim.
So in order to best help us help them, they need to communicate with us about those kinds of things, about their life changes, about their life issues. Once we know about it, we can fix it to the best of the case’s ability. If they don’t tell us about it and leave us in the dark, it’ll come back to haunt them and us.
Adam Flager:
We talk about this with clients all the time. I mean, I grill clients when I’m signing them up about prior accidents, prior injuries — all of this stuff. Because, as Jeff said, if you know about it, some of this stuff you can handle or mitigate. But if you don’t know about it and I find out in a deposition room, there’s very little I can do, and now the client’s credibility is out the window.
And if you have no credibility, if you don’t come off as likable and if you don’t come off as credible, then nobody wants to give you money — whether that’s an insurance company or a jury. Nobody wants to give you money because they think you’re doing it for all the wrong reasons — and maybe in those situations, you are.
So communication. And Jeff was talking about reporting it right away, even though the statute of limitations is three years — but you really need to do that.
We have people who fall — you might fall in a store, and you never told the manager. And so now they don’t know about it, and you didn’t come to me for a month. Well, now the security footage is gone because they didn’t know about it, whereas had you told them, they would have pulled the security footage, and you would have had that. That would have shown there was something on the floor that should have been cleared and wasn’t, and you’ve ruined your case.
And being an advocate for yourself with the doctors — talking to them about what your issues are, what you can’t do, keeping track of that — so we can humanize you. The insurance company views you as just a number, another case. But if we can humanize you — “Here’s all the things you can’t do anymore…” So many people have these unique things.
“Hey, I take care of an elderly family member.” The insurance company doesn’t know that. But if you tell me that, and I know it, and we go over all those details, now I can show the insurance company, yeah, this was a bigger deal than you even realized, because this person cares for someone in their family. Or because of the nature of what they do for a living, this injury affects them more than it would affect me, maybe. All of those things allow us to do our job better, so that the clients can focus on getting better and we can focus on beating up the insurance company.
Jeff Gross:
So interesting — Jeff, you said… we talked about the video. I gave the example of the baseball player that jumped over, okay, and credibility. You just mentioned Adam — and Jeff, it’s one of the great answers, it’s why you’re who you are.
I’ll never forget it. I gave an example to Jeff: I was watching the World Series a couple years ago when Texas won and a guy — one of their big guns — hurt himself in the middle of it, right? He was the MVP of the ALCS, and then he got hurt in the second game of the World Series.
Now the guy’s a stud, he’s got a massive max contract, all those things. Yet he couldn’t play the next three to four games, right? But when they won the World Series — and I’m talking to Adam, because Jeff knows the story — when they won the World Series, he jumped over the damn fence and was jumping around like a fool like everybody else.
And I thought to myself: there’s a good example of a guy who was hurt, but the adrenaline had him jump over. The video shows him. It shows that you’re not always… right.
And what was your answer, Jeff? That telling the truth on video was important because of your credibility, right?
Jeff Gross:
So I was giving you reasons why people get caught with videotape and what the issue is. A lot of times videotape surveillance — which is what you’re referring to — doesn’t really show anything bad. Like, for instance, if you have a motor vehicle accident, you’re treating, and the video shows that you’re driving, that’s not necessarily bad. I mean, you can drive even if you’ve been in an accident. A lot of people can drive better than they can walk.
But the point is, if you testify that you can’t drive because of your injuries and then they catch you driving on videotape, it ruins your credibility. Your credibility.
Adam Flager:
I just had this conversation literally this afternoon before I came to the studio with new clients. Sometimes people think they’re going to outsmart the insurance companies.
We had a situation where someone said, “I can’t do anything. I can’t lift anything anymore.” And then they have someone at a big box store — they have video — leaving a big box store, buying a bunch of stuff, going home, and the wife is handing the husband the big container of laundry detergent to bring into the house.
Well, that would be fine if, at their deposition, they would have said — if the wife had said, “I’m just too weak, I can’t do it, he’s doing it, but he struggles to do it. There’s no other way to get it in the house. We don’t have anyone else.”
But instead they said, “He can’t do it.” And now we have video evidence of you doing exactly what you just said you couldn’t do, and that kills the case. That case took a big hit financially for them. They didn’t have to do it. There was a way to explain:
“Hey, I can’t bring all of this in. I’m not that strong myself. I need him to do it. He struggles to do it, but he does it.”
It would have been fine.
And now, traditionally it was always the video surveillance. Now you can go on social media.
Jeff Gross:
I was just gonna say social media, because, you know, hiring a private investigator is expensive. Going on social media is relatively inexpensive. So people need to have their privacy settings on.
I’ve had situations — and we were just talking about this as well — someone says, “I can’t do this and my back hurts,” and all that. And I literally had an attorney show her a picture of her dancing on a bar top.
What are you supposed to do? You just said, you just testified you can’t do all these things, and here you are dancing on the bar top. Which is it?
And again: A) don’t dance on the bar top. B) don’t lie about it either, because they’re going to catch you. These are the attorneys you’re going against — they’re trained very well to catch you in an inconsistency.
Jeff Gross:
And this is a new world. Obviously, I’ve heard these social media stories. Most of the time somebody is obviously limited in their physicality, but they’ll do something.
It’s amazing what you said, Jeff, and that word “credibility,” Adam, that you just talked about triggered that. Because I imagine at the beginning of your case — or throughout it — it’s a big part of your conversation, right? Social media, obviously. Just being honest and communicating. Treatment — going to your treatments.
Now, the contingency fee agreement — I just want to point that out to our listeners: if you retain or even just seek a consultation from Adam or Jeff, there’s no out-of-pocket costs. Whether you seek the consultation or you retain them, which is, to me — and what I’ve heard attorneys say — the great equalizer. So there’s no out-of-pocket costs.
You guys, when it comes to both of your practices — you talk about hiring experts. There’s no out-of-pocket cost. In your world, Adam, that can get pretty expensive, and you do that as part of the case if necessary.
Adam Flager:
Sure. I mean, we tell people: we’re committed to your case. If I’m signing you up and I know I’m going to be spending a lot of time and spending resources, then it’s because I believe in you and I believe in your case.
And so, yeah, if I get money for you, I get reimbursed for that. But sometimes you don’t get reimbursed for that. If it turns out that there isn’t a case and I still have that money out on the street, that’s a… you know, I’ve got to write that off at the end of the year.
Jeff Gross:
The point is, it’s also important that you need a firm that has the resources, that’s willing to use them. Not long ago, I had a woman — an attorney, a personal injury attorney — in the chair, and she said that the young lady who came into her office said to her — and I probably brought this up before, I forget, it wasn’t long ago — “Do I have to pay for my experts again?”
If you’ve got a great attorney, obviously like Jeff Gross and Adam Flager, that will never happen. But that’s why it’s important not to get a dabbler.
This has been the fastest hour in radio. Adam Flager, if you will, contact information for the firm.
Adam Flager:
Thanks again for having me. Adam Flager. The law firm is Flager & Associates, where we handle Pennsylvania and New Jersey motor vehicle, slip and fall, premises cases, dog bites, dangerous products.
Our phone number is 215-953-5200, and the website is FlagerLaw.com — that’s F-L-A-G-E-R-L-A-W dot com.
Jeff Gross:
You can catch Adam Flager on the Flager & Associates Personal Injury Hour every month, on the second Wednesday of the month.
Jeff, if you will, contact information.
Jeff Gross:
Best place to get me is on my cell phone, which nobody likes me to give out — which is 215-512-1500. Or you can call my firm at Gross & Kenny, which is 267-589-0090, but always the best place to get me is my cell.
How about the website?
Website is www.PhiladelphiaWorkersComp.com.
Jeff Gross:
Fantastic, awesome. It’s been a fantastic show. I want to thank our listeners for tuning into The Jeff Gross Show here on WWDB Talk 860. I want to thank our guest, Adam Flager of Flager & Associates, for being here, and of course our host, Jeff Gross.
On behalf of Jeff, and of course Adam, and everybody here at Gross & Kenny, I’m Joe Dougherty. Go Birds.
Go Birds.
