Tom Wing Esq. & Adam Flager Esq. | 02-25-25 | McMenamin & Wing Show (WWDB Talk 860)

01/15/2026

When someone gets hurt, the first thing that breaks isn’t always a bone.

It’s confidence.

Because right after the impact—whether it’s a crash, a fall, or a workplace injury—most people don’t feel “ready to make decisions.” They feel flooded:

Who do I call first?
What should I say (or not say)?
What if I trust the wrong place and regret it later?

That’s what made this episode of the McMenamin & Wing Show on WWDB Talk 860 unexpectedly valuable. What started with tie-dye shirts, gym jokes, and music talk quickly turned into a real conversation about the things that actually shape outcomes for injured people: communication, experience, resources, and trust.

On air, host Joe Dougherty sat down with:

Tom Wing of McMenamin & Wing (workers’ compensation)
Adam Flager of Flager & Associates (personal injury)

And together, they broke down how the legal system feels from the client’s seat—especially in a world full of mega-firms, billboards, and call-center case handling.

Two Boutique Firms, One Shared Theme: “Don’t Let People Become Numbers”

Both Wing and Flager kept coming back to the same idea:

Big systems don’t just lose paperwork. They lose people.

Tom compared it to trying to call an insurance carrier and get a human being. Adam compared it to modern healthcare—doctor offices and hospital networks getting “gobbled up,” with patients feeling rushed, unheard, and shuffled around.

Their argument wasn’t “big is bad.” It was more specific:

When you’re injured, you need a team that has the resources of a serious firm—but still treats you like a person, not a file.

That means:

real conversations
calls returned
time spent answering questions
catching details before they become problems

Because according to both attorneys, that’s how mistakes happen: when no one slows down long enough to listen.

Flager & Associates: 35 Years Built on Reputation, Not Hype

Adam Flager laid out what Flager & Associates handles—and why longevity matters when your life gets turned sideways.

Flager & Associates is a Pennsylvania/New Jersey personal injury firm handling cases like:

Car accidents and serious vehicle crashes
Slip/trip-and-fall cases
Premises injuries
Dangerous/defective products
And other negligence-based injury claims

Adam also noted the firm is in its 35th year, with multi-decade staff members and minimal turnover—something he believes clients can feel the moment they walk in.

And yes… the tie-dye Tuesdays are real.

But the point wasn’t fashion. The point was culture: creating an environment that puts clients at ease when they’re walking in scared, stressed, and in pain.

The “Small Firm” Advantage Most People Don’t Understand Until It’s Too Late

Joe put it plainly: in the age of the mega firm, you might never speak to “the lawyer on the billboard.”

Both attorneys warned about a modern trap:

You can end up paying the same contingency fee either way—but get completely different service.

Tom’s “mom-and-pop deli” analogy was the clearest:

At a small, well-run firm, they know who you are. They recognize your voice. They don’t route you through an 800-number maze for a status update.

Adam made the same point another way: people often need “hand-holding” after an injury—not because they’re helpless, but because the process is intimidating.

When you’re dealing with:

medical appointments
insurance calls
missed work
property damage
uncertainty about healing

…lack of communication doesn’t just annoy clients. It creates fear.

And fear leads to bad decisions.

Resources Matter: “Boutique” Doesn’t Mean “Lightweight”

One of the most important takeaways from the episode was about something clients rarely think to ask:

Can this firm afford to build my case the right way?

Adam gave a real example: a complex product liability case involving a defective ladder that required significant expert support—metallurgist, orthopedic, neurosurgeon, neuropsych, and more—totaling roughly $75,000 in case costs.

That matters because:

those costs are typically fronted by the firm
they can determine whether the insurance company takes the case seriously
they can shift a case from “lowball offer” to “serious settlement”

Tom reinforced the point from the workers’ comp side: reputable firms front costs and don’t bill injured clients for expert fees out-of-pocket. They take the risk because they have the backing to do it.

Bottom line: the “cheapest-looking firm” can end up costing you the most—if they can’t afford to fight.

Why Communication Isn’t Just “Customer Service”—It’s Case Strategy

This episode made something very clear:

Communication isn’t a soft skill. It’s a legal advantage.

Tom explained that when firms don’t stay in touch with clients, they miss facts that can change the entire case—extra insurance coverage, additional responsible parties, or key details that expand damages.

He also pointed out something many people don’t realize: in workers’ comp cases with third-party claims (common in construction), bad coordination can create real legal problems—like targeting the wrong entity or making admissions that complicate the third-party case.

Adam echoed the same thing from the personal injury side:

Insurance companies track firms. They learn who pushes cases, who spends money, and who goes the distance.

That reputation affects negotiations long-term.

So “being reachable” isn’t just nice. It helps prevent mistakes, spot opportunities, and build leverage.

AI, Automation, and the Next Legal Battlefield

The show also went deep on AI—from a practical, grounded angle.

Both attorneys agreed AI can be powerful for tasks like:

sorting huge medical records
extracting treatment timelines and diagnoses
reviewing adjuster files full of cryptic coding
running calculations and scenario models

But they also gave the warning clients should care about:

AI can hallucinate.
It’s a tool—not a replacement for judgment.

And then came a question that’s going to define future law school exams:

What happens when two self-driving cars crash into each other?

Adam pointed out the likely shift: more accidents may become product liability questions (expensive, complex), rather than straightforward negligence.

Tom raised another reality: most consumers click “agree” to terms that try to push responsibility back onto the driver—and courts will have to decide how far that goes as self-driving becomes normal.

The Quiet Truth Under the Whole Episode: People Want a Guide

Not a billboard.

Not a “case manager.”

Not a rushed intake and silence.

They want someone who can say:

Here’s what matters.
Here’s what happens next.
Here’s what we’ll handle.
Here’s what you need to focus on.

That’s the real difference this episode highlighted: boutique firms that run like serious operations—without turning clients into numbers.

Contact Information Mentioned on Air

Flager & Associates (Personal Injury)
Phone: 215-953-5200
Website: FlagerLaw.com

McMenamin & Wing (Workers’ Compensation)
(Referenced on air; follow Tom Wing on TikTok: @THWESQ)

TRANSCRIPT

Announcer / Disclaimer Voice

The following program is sponsored by McMenamin & Wing, LLC. The views expressed do not necessarily reflect that of WWDB, its staff, or management.

Joe Dougherty

All right, ladies and gentlemen around the Delaware Valley, welcome to the McMenamin & Wing Show here on WWDB Talk 860.

Joe Dougherty

Got a great show. Our host, Tom Wing is in the house. Tom, how are you, sir?

Tom Wing

I’m feeling pretty good. How you feeling?

Joe Dougherty

I couldn’t feel better. We have Adam Flager, who is our guest. How are you, Adam?

Adam Flager

Doing well, Joe, enjoying the beautiful weather outside.

Unidentified Speaker

Absolutely got the tie dye going the whole deal. I was—

Tom Wing

—wondering how I was going to get one of those.

Joe Dougherty

Really, we can get you those. We have—

Joe Dougherty

Oh, you know what’s funny, you got the Flager & Associates. I didn’t see the law.

Adam Flager

This is work here. I’m in a custom tie dye shirt. Love it. We have—so tie dye Tuesday, every week. We have hoodies, long sleeve T shirts, and everyone wears—

Joe Dougherty

So I’m gonna, I’m gonna go around the home real quick, because I like to talk about that culture and keeping it loose and fun at the firm. Tom, remind our listeners, obviously, about McMenamin & Wing.

Tom Wing

We’re the less fun firm. So we do workers’ comp statewide here in Pennsylvania. Workers’ comp is all we do.

Joe Dougherty

Fantastic. And Adam Flager, if you will, little bit about Flager & Associates—and by the way, you can plug your radio show if you’d like.

Adam Flager

Sure. So Adam Flager from Flager & Associates, we are a personal injury firm—motor vehicle, slip and falls, premises cases, dangerous products, all that. We are licensed in Pennsylvania and New Jersey, and we also have the Flager & Associates Personal Injury Hour the second Wednesday of every month, same time at noon.

Joe Dougherty

Fantastic. So I dig it. Tell me, you know, everybody comes in and tie dye on—on one—that was it one day a month.

Adam Flager

Tuesday. Holy Tuesday. So every Tuesday we have, you know, we have all of our normal gear that we wear, you know, quarter zips or polo shirts or what have you. And I was in my father’s office—who’s a child of the 60s—this was a couple years ago already—and he goes, “Can we get tie dye?” Yeah, you can get anything you want. It’s just money, right?

So we got a local tie dye artist that was in South Philly at the time. We got some white shirts with our logo on it, sent it to him, and now we just got a lot more. So we can start giving them out to clients and things. And Tom as well—you can have one. Give me the size and we’ll make it happen.

But it’s a nice thing because it puts clients at ease when they come in. It’s a fun thing.

Joe Dougherty

So it’s cool, man, I dig it. Tom, by the way, you’re gonna cut the—yeah—Tom, we’re gonna cut the sleeves. Tom and I work out together at the gym. He’s never—

Tom Wing

There, though, ever. Joe’s get me up at four o’clock in the morning, and then I—

Joe Dougherty

Must work out at a different time than him, because for some reason he doesn’t see me.

Tom Wing

I see him. I’m there in spirit.

Joe Dougherty

In spirit. Interesting—funny you mentioned child of the 60s. And I was watching the TV show the other day—last night actually—and it was Simon and Garfunkel—was a whole hour on them, right?

And I mean, it’s funny, because as much as I’m a sports guy—and by the way Tom, no talking football today. Okay? I know you’re the host of the show, but please.

You dig music—everybody likes music—you’re going to get quizzed here. I want to know how Garfunkel met Simon.

But it was cool—that era of music—and I like to—you know—it was a cutting edge era when it comes to rock and roll and, you know, sporting a Grateful Dead kind of a tired era—yeah—you know, I love that stuff.

You music guy? Who’s your bands? I mean, I got a million—

Adam Flager

Yeah, I have a lot of— I like a lot of different genres of music. So, you know, you mentioned Simon and Garfunkel. I saw Paul Simon at the Center City—and he’s coming back I saw in June—but I’ll see something like that, or Santana or The Who—you know, music from my dad’s era.

But then I’ll also see modern stuff—Kacey Musgraves or things like that. I like the band Phish. But, okay—you know—all types of hip hop, you know, whatever. I see it all.

Joe Dougherty

Well. So if you could bring one artist back—one artist back to see—Tom, I know you like a lot of music, but there’s got to be one band or artist who’s not with us anymore that you might—if you could—one artist you would like to go see.

Tom Wing

Look, if we could bring back Kurt Cobain. Okay—

Joe Dougherty

It’s funny you mentioned Kurt Cobain, because the magnitude—so you start talking about Kurt Cobain, you’re talking about The Beatles, you’re talking about Led Zeppelin—you’re talking about an artist who transcended. In other words, he impacted genres. He wiped glam rock off the planet as soon as Smells Like Teen Spirit hit the radio.

Tom Wing

I mean, you’re talking about music that kind of transcended any other type of music—100% timeless. It’s music that’s not made anymore, right? Like we all have all corporate stuff now—

Joe Dougherty

Yeah, and it’s funny how—so music, you know, very obviously—it’s impactful. You’ll get a kick out of this: there’s only one thing I do better than talk, okay? And you can hear I’m kind of—you know—I’m a bass player, right? I play bass guitar.

Tom Wing

So I thought it was you doing the national anthem Super Bowl. I thought it was you—

Joe Dougherty

Yeah, it was me, okay, but they wouldn’t let me come out. All right?

Adam Flager

They taped it, and then they had another guy. They lip synced.

Joe Dougherty

Yeah, guys. Lip bass.

One of the things we’re going to talk about today is AI, okay? They ripped me off, okay? They stuck somebody else out there.

But what got me heavily into music—my dad used to play Led Zeppelin records and The Who and all that stuff, right? But what really got us into music and playing music was KISS. It was crazy. I remember it like it was yesterday—my first concert and all that.

And it is funny because I don’t know a lot of genres now. I was in a nightclub business, and I managed a couple of hip hop artists. I know a heck of a lot about hip hop. But it was—obviously a big culture.

I remember I was in a band, I was at the recording studio that we’re at, and I’ll never forget a guy by the name of Jean James Green. He was a photographer, and he says to me: hip hop is someday going to be mainstream. And I’m like, no chance, right? Because it was like the 80—well, James was right. Obviously James was right.

Adam Flager

Representing at the Super Bowl, yeah, yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

Joe Dougherty

Kendrick, right. Kendrick. Come on now.

Look, I’m not—when I was in the club business, we had a big hip hop culture. Massive. We’re in Philly—you know the who’s who.

But I didn’t really—I’m not into the beefs. So I didn’t understand Drake and Kendrick Lamar. Not that I didn’t—I just didn’t know.

But evidently, the halftime show at the Super Bowl was Kendrick Lamar and sending all kinds of messages. There must be some kind of lawsuit—I heard Tom Wing and Adam Flager—I don’t know.

Unidentified Speaker

I don’t think I want to be involved in that.

Joe Dougherty

Well, it’s too late, because you can’t steal his beats.

Tom Wing

We tell our clients not to put anything on social media. Don’t say anything in public. And what are they doing? They’re going on the Super Bowl in front of millions—

Joe Dougherty

Well, I don’t think it was an accident. But what’s weird about it was, I wonder how many football fans really understood what the hell was going on.

And I don’t think anybody’s going to get hurt because of the beef. I don’t think they’re hardcore guys or anything like that. I mean, you see Drake at the Toronto Raptors games and stuff like that—he’s about 55. I mean, if they’re shooting at that age then there ain’t much hope for society.

But anyway—let’s get into our conversation.

You mentioned AI—and since you guys are pros at the radio gig these days, I wanted to get a little random and talk about a number of topics.

One thing you have in common: both family-owned firms, boutique firms.

Talk about that—difference between working at other firms and working in your family firm. And how does that rub off on the staff?

Tom, you go first.

Tom Wing

So it’s interesting. The firm I started at had almost all the same employees. So when that firm went under, one of the things we did was hire everyone, and so we’ve been with the same staff for decades.

The average length of employment of someone at my office is over 13 years. So it’s a great culture. We don’t really have turnover to speak of.

Everybody knows everybody. Everybody’s kids. When somebody graduates, a bunch of people from the office are going. Somebody gets married, there’s a table for the office there.

Joe Dougherty

Hold on—there’s a lot of checks coming out. Somebody else is getting married. It’s little Timmy’s birthday.

Tom Wing

Oh yeah. The school fundraisers are great. That time of year is great. Girl Scout cookies—oh yeah, we got plenty.

Joe Dougherty

I know. And it’s funny, because when I look at it—you guys are both a little older than I am. I would have to say Adam 10 years—Tom—

Unidentified Speaker

It’s all the work that depends on, I think—

Joe Dougherty

Exactly. Damn right. Request just aged us a little bit.

But you both had—talk about Flager & Associates and that same culture.

Adam Flager

Sure. It’s a wonderful thing to have, because I think your clients feel that. They sense that camaraderie between everyone, and they understand that we care about each other, and we’re all caring about each other to then help our clients.

They always say, you know, “They treated me like family.” Flager & Associates treated me like family.

We have very low turnover. We had to hire only because someone who worked with my father for 35 years finally retired. A paralegal might be “new,” but she’s still been with us six years. Her mother’s with us.

Joe Dougherty

Like Ron Wood of the Rolling Stones—he’s still the new guy. Been in since 1974.

Adam Flager

It’s true. Many people have been with us since the 90s—long before I was an attorney. It’s wonderful because you have that rapport, and it translates to the work you do for clients.

Joe Dougherty

Also, because we had our hospitality business for 15 years and had a lot of employees the whole time—trust factor means a lot.

Talk about the privilege of being able to provide a living for people and their families for a long time.

Adam Flager

Yeah, I was thinking about that last night or two nights ago. We help clients—sometimes hand them checks that can be life changing money—but how many families we’ve helped through employment.

It’s a two-way street. They give us their time and effort, which helps clients, and we return that by paying real wages so they can be successful too.

Tom Wing

There’s another value: institutional awareness and institutional knowledge.

Especially now with churn-and-burn law firms—getting cases through as quickly as possible—having someone who understands how cases should be run from start to finish is increasingly valuable.

Unidentified Speaker

Okay, you know, and—

Joe Dougherty

That segues really well to the age of the mega firm.

People may never talk to the Tom Wing or Adam Flager at some of those firms.

Talk about the benefits of sitting where you guys sit.

Tom Wing

I’ll turn that on its head: call the insurance company directly and see how long it takes to get a human being.

These giant conglomerates are run like corporations.

But a mom and pop deli knows your voice. They know your family.

That’s the experience you get at a smaller firm.

Now you have to be careful—you need resources to get claims through. These are not cheap cases to try.

But you need to be small enough that you don’t forget who you work for.

Unidentified Speaker

In your case, 100%.

Adam Flager

I think about it like doctors’ offices being gobbled up. Patients hate it. Doctor doesn’t have power, can’t spend time, erosion of personal connection.

In personal injury—when someone is banged up—they need hand holding. It’s personal. We had new clients yesterday—we’re not rushing them out in four minutes. We’re there an hour, two hours, whatever it takes to answer questions and make it less scary.

That’s the touch you don’t get at large firms where you never talk to the lawyer, calls aren’t returned.

Tom Wing

And that’s how you miss something. If you’re not talking to clients, mistakes are made.

You miss other actors—excess coverage—facts that change damages.

I can’t tell you how many times we’ve given second opinions where cases were quickly resolved and we find mistakes.

It’s sad having to tell someone there’s nothing we can do to fix it.

Joe Dougherty

That reminds me of the medical system. I was in the hospital four years ago—four different people came in asking the same information. Like vendors. Not communicating.

Ball gets dropped in big systems.

Adam Flager

I’m regularly shocked more people aren’t killed in hospitals for that stuff. Not the doctors’ fault—the system is corporate. Things get missed.

Joe Dougherty

We talked last week about health care—Hahnemann Hospital shutting down. Massive tragedy.

I’m not saying every corporate situation is bad—but people getting to talk to Tom Wing and Adam Flager matters.

Now, legal marketing—billboards—people advertising who don’t practice law. Some numbers route elsewhere.

As true pros—how does this cloud legal marketing?

Adam Flager

Marketing—you have to grab attention. We’re not selling soda. People can go years without needing us.

Word of mouth is still gold standard. We’re in our 35th year. We represent grandchildren of clients from the 90s.

But different people respond to different channels—billboard, social, referrals. You have to do all of the above.

Joe Dougherty

If a family member gets injured, I’m not looking at a billboard. I need a referral.

Tom?

Tom Wing

A lot of people don’t make decisions that way, and it’s bad for the consumer.

If you call a billboard number and don’t even get that firm, that seems misleading.

Ultimately the consumer loses.

You pay about the same fee for a lawyer who won’t talk to you as one who will talk to you every day—and you won’t get the same results.

Joe Dougherty

You mentioned resources.

People don’t understand—dabblers—good in wills, estates, landlord-tenant—but personal injury or workers’ comp on the side can be a major problem.

You’ve got to invest in cases. David and Goliath.

Talk about resources.

Adam Flager

Being boutique doesn’t mean we don’t put money into cases.

We had a complex product liability case—defective ladder—probably $75,000 in hard costs: metallurgist, orthopedist, neurosurgeon, neuropsych—one after another. Everyone needs to get paid.

We spent it. Outcome was seven figures.

Defense said they don’t pay—they fight tooth and nail. Corporate counsel from the Midwest.

Michael Levin in my office said fine. We played that game. We nearly knocked out their experts. Then they wanted to settle.

We spent the money, our experts ripped theirs apart, and we got a big settlement.

Joe Dougherty

They think they’re going to bleed you out. Dabblers might not have the $75,000. That matters.

Tom—experts in your world?

Tom Wing

That $75,000 is fronted by the firm. Injured person isn’t billed.

Some dabblers try to bill—I’ve seen it.

A reputable firm fronts costs and can eat them if there’s no recovery. I’ve never sent a bill to a client for case costs in my career.

In workers’ comp, most common expert is medical—treating physician. Sometimes specialists, radiologists. We don’t have engineers or metallurgists—liability doesn’t matter. It’s no fault.

We do have vocational experts.

We front those costs too, but fewer than liability.

Joe Dougherty

This may be archaic, but I’m learning AI—ChatGPT.

Adam Flager

It can supplement time-consuming tasks: demand packages, sifting thousands of pages of medical records, diagnosis codes, highlights—seconds instead of hours.

Not replacing us—supplementing—so we can spend time doing things humans are needed for.

Tom Wing

It’s a great supplement.

Workers’ comp has a lot of math—statistical models—AI is fantastic there.

You can subpoena adjuster claim files—hundreds of pages—AI can decode obscure insurer codes and point to the exact page with the issue.

But caution: AI isn’t perfect. It can hallucinate. You have to know what you’re doing and verify outputs.

Joe Dougherty

You’re listening to the McMenamin & Wing Show here on WWDB Talk 860. We’re with host Tom Wing and guest Adam Flager.

Here’s a wacky question: driverless cars. Two driverless cars get in an accident—who gets sued?

Adam Flager

New law school exam question.

If self-driving causes accident, it might become product liability instead of normal tort.

Product liability is wildly expensive. If case is worth $25,000 you can’t spend $15,000 on experts.

But cars should be smart enough to avoid interacting. Statistically it’ll happen.

Tesla has cameras—you can download video. That can keep it in negligence instead of product liability.

Adam Flager

We talk about this even without self-driving: automatic braking, lane assist—exists because of personal injury lawyers. Reverse beeps because trucks used to hit people.

Unidentified Speaker

I mean, we’ve had adaptive—

Tom Wing

Cruise control for 20 years.

I’m curious about the terms and conditions you agree to—consumer responsibility. How far courts let companies go blaming consumers when most cars do this.

Joe Dougherty

Who’s the insured? If I’m sitting in the back and there’s a malfunction—did I buy the wrong car?

Adam Flager

You still have to have hands on the wheel. Cars warn you. You still need a human check.

Joe Dougherty

That makes sense—human second line.

Adam Flager

Defendants claim brakes went out all the time.

I had a trial: guy drove through a Panera Bread—twice. Claimed acceleration. Data said foot on gas. No mechanic confirmed issue. Human error.

Tom Wing

Most cars now have data recorders. We’ve pulled them. You can see accelerator depression and brake timing.

Joe Dougherty

AI and construction—automation—cranes. If crane is automated and injury happens—third party?

Tom Wing

First thing we do: issue-spot third party.

Machine involved? Potential products liability. Bring someone like Adam.

Construction has multiple targets—only one pays workers’ comp, but liability exposure can be large.

Joe Dougherty

Union guy waits a month, job site is gone—Tom gets it, sends to Adam—what then?

Adam Flager

Workers’ comp attorney may already investigate. Sometimes insurer helps because they want subrogation.

OSHA may investigate—can yield who was involved and what went wrong.

Construction splinters: contractors, subs, machinery, maintenance companies.

It’s nicer day-of—but automation leaves data. A month later, it can still be there.

Joe Dougherty

Clients say communication is biggest thing. Importance of attorney-to-attorney communication in workers’ comp + third party?

Adam Flager

Key. Workers’ comp often leads on treatment and medical records. They send records our way, and keep us updated.

Workers’ comp usually settles before third party. We need coordination.

Client may tell one lawyer something important for the other. More communication = better for client.

Tom Wing

A lot of room for error.

If I target the wrong defendant in comp, I can screw up the third party case.

I handle subrogation liens and can often reduce them.

We must be careful about injury descriptions and admissions—issue preclusion concerns.

Joe Dougherty

Referral network is extension of your firm.

Adam Flager

Correct. You don’t want “that guy you sent me to stinks.” You want clients treated well.

Joe Dougherty

Tom—strength of referral network is crucial.

Tom Wing

That’s why we don’t do third party in-house. Often it’s the more valuable claim. We refer to people better at it than us.

We do workers’ comp. They call us on workers’ comp questions.

Stronger network = best result.

Joe Dougherty

Couple minutes left. Adam: percent of cases go to trial?

Adam Flager

Single digits. Maybe 3%–5% at most.

Joe Dougherty

When does settlement make sense? Boxes to check?

Tom Wing

Settlement is a client decision.

Quick settlements in workers’ comp are usually not valuable.

Serious injuries: you need to know future medical treatment needs. If you don’t, you don’t know value.

Joe Dougherty

We’ll hold Adam Flager’s response for next time. Till we meet again.

Adam, contact info.

Adam Flager

Adam Flager, Flager & Associates. Phone: 215-953-5200. Website: FlagerLaw.com — F as in Frank, L, A, G, E, R — L, A, W — dot com. And Flager & Associates on Instagram.

Tom Wing

Tom Wing, McMenamin & Wing. Follow me on TikTok at THWESQ.

Joe Dougherty

That’s right. Listen—shout out to Matt Dietz, our producer in the house and our producers.

On behalf of Adam Flager and of course Tom Wing and all of our listeners and our producers in the production room, I’m Joe Dougherty. Thanks for listening to everybody.